Joan of Kent’s Marriages

Joan of Kent’s Marriages

Ooh, sounds fascinating and reveals even more information I previously didn’t know about or only had a vague idea of about one of my favorite historical figures and was beloved in her own time, Joan of Kent! 🙂

Before reading this post, I assumed that Joan’s first two marriages were arranged and only her third marriage was for love — though it seems I must think twice before assuming that again because it appears that Joan did love Thomas Holland, which was a bit of a shock to me since she was so young when she got married and I assumed that because of her extreme youth, the union was arranged and that they didn’t consummate it immediately after. I would have thought that if Joan and Thomas really wished to marry, they would have done so when she was older, perhaps from the ages of 14-18, but again they may have married hastily because by that time Joan would have been of marriageable age and she wouldn’t have wanted to be married off to somebody other than Thomas, so yes, it’s more than likely it was a love match.

She also married Edward the Black Prince for love — though in the end, it may have been her first husband who was her true love because she asked to be buried beside him in her will. However, because she may have truly loved both of them and had a hard time choosing where to be buried, she chose to be buried beside Thomas as a sign of respect that she still loved him and hadn’t forgotten him at all even after her love match with the Black Prince.

Hmm, if ever I’ll go through with my possible novel on Joan of Kent in the future, I now have a gold mine of information on Joan and her marriages and how to interpret them 🙂

Sir Gervase Clifton – an irritatingly elusive figure

A Nevill Feast

I have ore information about Gervase now. See here for an updated version.

Following up on my January calendar of Nevill-related events (or Nevents), I present to you the little I’ve been able to unearth about Sir Gervase Clifton, staunch Lancastrian, third husband of Maud Stanhope and an utterly elusive character. It’s one of the joys (and frustrations) of historical research – stumbling on a minor figure who turns out to be far more important than I thought at first glance, only to end up scrabbling for any tiny piece of information in order to flesh out their character and their lives. This is what happened with my very dear Henry Fitzhugh – he’s gone from a peripheral Warwick brother-in-law to (hopefully) the star of his very own book! I don’t think Gervase is likely to enjoy the same meteoric rise, but he’s pushed himself into the foreground, sending…

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The sad tale of Perkin Warbeck

Sounds like a truly excellent and meticulously researched biography of Perkin Warbeck — I’ll be sure to check it out soon when I think it’s possible to get my hands on it! 😀

A Nevill Feast

I’ve just finished reading Ann Wroe’s beautifully written biography (such as is possible) of the man we know now as Perkin Warbeck. This is not a ‘straight’ biography by any means. Wroe fills the pages with emotion, and occasionally with that thing that non-fiction history writers must NEVER do – speculation. But for the most part, she speculates, to my mind, intelligently. She left me feeling desperately sad for everyone involved: Perkin himself, of course, who ended his days at the end of a rope after daring to aim so high; his wife, Katherine Gordon, who stood by him and failed to repudiate him, even when it was clear he wasn’t who she believed him to be; Margaret of Burgundy, a childless woman, loved by other women’s children, who more than anyone believed in Perkin and the rightness of her actions; James IV of Scotland who stubbornly refused to believe…

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Marriage & the Nevills: Robert, Thomas, Gervase & Maud – the director’s cut

This is indeed very fascinating, especially as it’s about a woman I hadn’t heard of earlier but I now wish to learn more about! 🙂 Poor Maud, she really went through a lot of ordeals in her lifetime, didn’t she? But, up until the end, I believe she never fully despaired and was a strong, courageous woman who did her best to pick up the pieces and continue on with life. 😀

A Nevill Feast

Guesswork based on very little information can be fun… It can also lead you down totally erroneous pathways, but if you don’t have the information, how do you know?

So, I have the information now and travelling the right path is going to be so much more rewarding than anything mere guesswork can provide – for me and everyone else. There’s still a little of that, mind you…

So, I’ve talked a little bit about Maud and Thomas’s marriage (and here) and about Gervase Clyfton before. Not quite totally wrong, but close enough. There are times when being wrong can be bitter and close to unbearable. This is not one of those times. I’ve linked both those posts to this one, coz this one is definitive! Um, well… As close to it as I can get, and that’s a good deal closer than I was at the start of…

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Marriage and the Nevills – Isobel Nevill and George Duke of Clarence

Glad to know that there was most likely something else to this marriage aside from how PG’s books and The White Queen portrayed them… 🙂

A Nevill Feast

In their blog, The Tragic Neville Sisters – Pawns in the Wars of the Roses, CMHypno poses one final question: … but did they have a happy, fulfilled life? The short answer to that is probably Yes, though, of course, in history or otherwise, there are rarely any short answers.

Two things need to be taken into account before we can examine the lives in question – or here, at least, the life of Isobel Nevill. 1. We need to stop measuring the lives of these two young women against the expectations and attitudes of young women today; and 2. We need to remember that when they were born, neither of them had a use-by date stamped on their foreheads. They had no idea they were going to die as young as they did; they did not walk through the world, doomed and tragic; they lived each day…

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Lost in the swamps of Illogicity

Oh dear… *shakes head*

A Nevill Feast

In response to a post very helpfully entitled ‘The delusions of the Cairo-dwellers”

What I’m not going to do is stoop to the blogger’s level with cheap insults. What I am going to do is apply logic to some quite baffling ‘arguments’. Because, here in the real world, logic is not only at home but gets up and answers the doorbell. We have to be careful, though – shine any kind of light in the swamps of Illogicity and there’s scurrying and hurrying and snapping at ankles.

1. If Margaret of Burgundy lied about the identity of Perkin Warbeck, then the King of France must have been lying about Richard III murdering the Princes.

Firstly, to suggest that Person A might have lied about something doesn’t mean that everyone else is a liar. This is something about individual human beings the inhabitants of Illogicity might not have grasped – we’re…

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Marriage and the Nevills – Cecily Nevill and Richard Duke of York

I’ve always thought these two were quite close and had a relatively happy marriage, and they could be known to travel together often which is why we must look at the ‘Edward IV was fathered by a common archer’ theory with even more wariness as we don’t know the actual whereabouts of Cecily at this time, I believe, and she herself could have been with the Duke of York when she conceived — if Edward really was a full-term baby.

A Nevill Feast

There has been a great deal written about Cecily Nevill. Google her (with the inevitable final ‘e’) and you’ll get nearly 98,000 results, most of them discussing her in relation to the men (husband, sons and brothers) in her life. She outlived all but one of her children, and spent thirty five years in widowhood. Two of her sons became kings of England, a granddaughter was queen, as she herself almost was.

Cecily was born on 3 May 1415 at Raby Castle in Yorskhire, the youngest of Ralph Nevill’s 23 children (and the youngest of her mother, Joan Beaufort’s 10). In 1424, she was betrothed to the young duke of York.

Richard duke of York, born 21 September 1411, was the only son of Richard earl of Cambridge and Anne Mortimer. He had an older sister, Isabel, who married Henry viscount Bourchier, and a half sister Alice from his father’s…

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Inaccuracies in historical fiction – how much does it matter?

A Nevill Feast

This is a question that’s currently being discussed by members of a Facebook group – the History Police. We’re not aiming to come up with any kind of manifesto – the views and tolerance levels of the members being quite healthily varied – but for me it’s boiling down to one essential point: the gap in any given work between claims of accuracy and actual accuracy.

I decided to explore this issue using Sandra Worth’s Lady of the Roses. “Painstaking historical research,” the cover says.  “… dedication to authenticity” and “for readers who like the history in historical fiction to be accurate.” And, from the author herself: “I strive for as much accuracy as I can”(via facebook).

So far, in 152 pages of a nearly 400 page work, I’ve found 50 glaring inaccuracies. From not getting a character’s title right to shifting entire events in time to cliched, one-dimensional characters…

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Marriage and the Nevills – John Nevill and Isobel Ingoldisthorpe

A Nevill Feast

Due to a surprising number of people finding their way to the Feast by googling Isobel Ingoldisthorpe (and finding nothing but two fleeting references) I’ve decided to bite the bullet and finalise this post, which has been hanging around in my drafts folder for some time.

There seems to be a fairly widespread consensus of opinion that John Nevill and his wife were fond of each other. I think this is based on two lone facts: in the thirteen or so years of their marriage they produced seven children; and despite Isobel’s second marriage, she was buried with her first husband. While I’m prepared to accept this interpretation, I will state quite categorically that their marriage was based on practical, financial and political concerns (like any other noble marriage of the time) and not on romantic love. If they came to have a happy, companionable and loving marriage, there’s no…

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Barnet or How wrong can a man be?

So y’all can be even know more about the Battle of Barnet during which Richard Neville, 16th Earl of Warwick, was killed…

A Nevill Feast

Here was fought the famous battle between Edward IV and the Earl of Warwick April 14th Anno 1471 in which the Earl was Defeated and Slain.

The earl of Warwick was born a hundred years too late, I keep reading, but I don’t agree.  He wasn’t the Last of the Barons so much as a  template for a new kind of politician.  His main problem was that he was born in an age of kings, with just enough royal blood in his veins to make it impossible for him to be contented with his lot. Which, by any means of measurement, was a lot.  In a meritocracy, he might have achieved his lofty ambitions.  In a democracy, his masterful self-publicity, energy and very real abilities might have taken him to the top.  His major flaws, and there were many, would have led him to the same sorts of mistakes…

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